Leah Garcés and Sharon Núñez: Timeless lessons from 40+ years of animal advocac

[Music]
hi my name is Ay and my name is James
and this is how I learn to love shrim a
podcast about promising ways to help
animals and build the animal advocacy
movement an absolute treat of an episode
this week as we were asked to interview
longtime Advocates Leah gares and Sharon
nun live from the animal and vegan an
advocacy Summit in Washington DC in May
earlier this year the episode was also
recorded and is available on our YouTube
channel as I didn't read them out on the
day I'm going to start with a little
intro to them both and then we're off
with our enlightening episode so Leah
gares is president of Mercy for animals
and author of grilled turning
adversaries into allies to change the
chicken industry she has nearly 20 years
of leadership experience in the animal
protection movement and has partnered
with some of the world's largest food
companies on her Mission To Build a
Better food system Leah oversaw
International campaigns in 14 countries
at the world society for the protection
of animals and launched compassion in
World farming in the United States her
work has been featured by national and
international media Outlets Sharon nth
is the co-founder and president of
animal equality a leading international
Animal Protection Organization ranked as
one of the most effective animal rights
organizations in the world for three
consecutive years by animal charity
evaluators animal quality Works in eight
countries has 11 offices in major cities
and a total of 70 employees Sharon has
studies in sociology and before devoting
her time to animal equality in 2006
Sharon served on the board and worked at
several animal protection organizations
in England and Spain and both Sharon and
the work of animal equality has been
featured in international
media thanks so much everyone um so
James and I started the podcast how I
learned to love shrimp a little while
ago really excited to be doing a live
episode here at the AA Summit as Sharon
said thanks so much for um joining us
it's a real pleasure to have an audience
obviously it's normally just us behind
our screens so to be doing this in
person with Leah and Sharon as a real
treat for us neither of them need a
hefty introduction of course we will be
speaking to Leah garz president of Mercy
for animals and Sharon Nunes
president of animal equality and both of
whom have been in the movement for 20
years plus and so we thought what better
way to stir some really stimulating
conversation than hearing from them both
on these really Timeless lessons for
activists through this huge 40 years
combined um of activism so welcome
Sharon and Leah thank you so much for
having us and big up to Amy for nailing
Sharon's last name's pronunciation she
she tried that several times in the in
the
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warmup that's right that's right and the
first thing we're going to start off
with is so you guys both got in the
movement in your 20s like some of us are
still in now and I guess what did you
think at that stage that you've kind of
come to that is maybe how how things
have changed over the past 20 years when
I first started and you all might relate
to this I was convinced that this was a
we just need to approach this rationally
and all we need to do is just tell
people what's happening and they'll
change their behavior so lots of fact
sheets lots of you know detailed reports
I spent I was an information researcher
at Compassion World farming when I first
started so this was like this is all I
need to do I just need to tell people
the facts and they'll they'll be
convinced very rational so that was
quite a long period of that and then
when I realize oh people know and
they're still not changing their
behavior I went through my Angry phase
which you also might relate to where I
was very angry at people and angry
activism was at my core um and then so
that period lasted probably about 10
years before then I switched to you know
the chickens don't care why people
choose not to eat them choose to care
for them they just want people to do it
so I just need to get people on the path
wherever they're at with whatever
arguments that convince them to get
moving in the right direction and so
there was a real evolution of of my
Approach but my you know my early phase
was just if only people knew they just
don't know that's why it was a very
innocent innocent initial phase yeah can
you relate to that well that was that
was my answer
Leah first of all I wanted to to thank
um Amy and James for for having uh me in
the podcast and it's an absolute honor
to be with all of you and with Leah garz
who is
a legend in the movement and I do want
to have a little shout out for someone
because um Leah and I have been 20 years
in the movement there's someone in this
room that's sitting over there I want a
big round of applause that is Mia and
she's been in the movement for 29
[Applause]
years so thank you then I have to say
that gem sitting next to her is also
been in the movement for equal amount of
time as started off in investigations
well for of those of you we've got some
Legends in the room we do including you
Sharon Just For Those listening who uh
aren't in this room right now we will
link both of these amazing activists in
the show notes um because we would love
to know more about the work that you've
done over the last um yeah however many
years you've been in the movement thank
you so yeah my answer is quite similar
to Leah because she stole it from me um
I think she didn't um I think I went
through a very similar process where I
just thought in my early 20s if people
just
knew but not even if even if they saw
slaughter houses if they just knew about
speciesism and that it's wrong to
discriminate other animals because of
their species they'll go vegan and of
course that didn't go well and um I
remember that our leaflets used to look
like we would say in Spanish like
medical prescriptions like they would
just be we would know photo and it would
just DET text and we would make the text
as small as possible to try to get as
much in as possible because we were like
the more the more they know the the more
they'll go
vegan and then I think that's something
that changed of course as um as we be as
we became more mature and and and
sophisticated and understood the world
is emotional and not necessarily
rational and I would say the second
thing was um
how quickly I thought that change would
happen um I thought that it was just a
matter of years for the population to go
vegan I was I was raised in Spain I
started my activism in
Spain and that didn't happen either and
though we've seen a tremendous amount of
progress for Animals over the years I
think it's really important that we
recognize and ackn knowledge that this
is a marathon and that it's for the long
term and that's definitely given me some
headaches yeah definitely I think we can
all relate to some of that early sort of
naivity when we join because we're all
just so passionate right and so we think
if we can just explain it to people then
they'll they'll change their mind so I I
definitely relate to that um definitely
went through an angry stage um did you
have an angry stage you still mad still
there
F and so thinking about that um those
kind of early thoughts what sparked your
initial thinking into this more sort of
sense of a long-term view um and
approach coming to the realization that
it was going to be a long fight um
Sharon when did that start for you I I I
guess I went through as Le was saying
several stages we we stopped doing these
100 page leaflets like booklets I
remember we I I translated French and we
started giving out Fran's books thinking
that that would make people abolitionist
not only
vegan I feel like we need an Archive
Gallery of all of these terrible
leaflets we should have them on display
what not to do yes showing this
progression
yeah and um then we started showing
footage of Investigations and it was
very clear to us
that this worked right and I I I'll
never forget in 2000
uh 2010 for the first time in the
history of Spain the news opened the
news is always at 3:00 in Spain and it
opened with images of pigs in farms and
with a with a female pig caught in a
gestation crate there I think we began
to understand okay you know this is
something that we have to show people
and treat differently than we were
before I think what really transform me
as an activist as a better activist was
in 201 um 11 I was um part of a team of
people who were investigating fur Farms
across Spain and I was detained for um 5
days in jail I was put in solitary
confinement and W I
remember being terrified I remember um
they took be from Madrid to the north of
Spain and they put me in a in a in a b
in a little like thing they would give
me any seat belts or anything and I
truly do remember looking outside and
seeing the the animals passing by and
just like no relation to them like
nothing was going to happen to me maybe
go to jail or prison but just feeling
that sense
of yeah
just the the the need to act and as uh
as as it progressed as we spent jail
time in jail as fortunately that case
got closed because it was all based on
on you know it was just all based on
lies and actually a judge in Spain came
out saying that investigations were not
only that they were not only legal but
they were important for the Democracy in
Spain I think we really started thinking
about okay okay like this is what what
we're up against we need really need to
become as sophisticated as possible with
our strategies yeah and I remember that
we just done just before the arrests we'
done an investigation into 12 zoos in
Spain that was before we were farmed
animals and we we we didn't use to sue
uh farms and zoos because we were like
well it's it's you know it's systemic it
doesn't matter where it's F but in this
case it was like no we're actually going
to sue the 12 of them and it exploded in
the media and um from there a little by
little just learning and becoming more
sophisticated um with our strategies I
always say that uh when I started in two
like when we started doing actions in
2003 2004 we would just stand outside
McDonald's with banners that read like
McDonald's is death and an animal and
now we stand outside Denny's with with a
banner but that is part of a campaign
that has a specific objective to achieve
at a specific timeline that brings us
closer to eliminating gestation crates
so I think you can clearly see the lack
of sophistication though I admire anyone
who does activism in one's case and then
the more thought out way of thinking
about how can we achieve ter long-term
change yeah I think it's interesting to
to think about the like the experiences
we've had that really shifted our
thinking um and for me that was around
2014 and it was at that time in the
United States I was living in the US and
uh no one had been inside a chicken
factory farm for about for about a
decade there hadn't been any
investigations in the United States and
I had been calling companies and like
can I get a tour you can guess what the
answer was no you cannot and uh I got
called by a journalist to look at some
of papers which included the feed
additives of uh what was going into a
chicken farm and I said where did you
get this and he said oh this this farmer
gave it to me which I hadn't expected
and this farmer turned out to be a man
named Craig Watts who lived about five
hours from me in North Carolina and he
gave me the number and I started talking
to him and really my my strong intention
there was to build a fake relationship
go in get footage and get out that was
my entire intention and
I called him we built a relationship uh
and I said can I come film he said sure
come and film and I went there with uh
my friend Reagan hodj in the camera and
I remember even saying like it's
possible I'm not coming back from here I
don't know why this man is letting me
into his chicken farm so here's the
address look for me like rotting away in
the chicken litter that's probably where
you'll find me and I went there with
that that intention like just get the
footage get out of there no one's seen
inside of this we don't have this
footage
so we went and I then had the biggest
shift in my thinking that I could have
possibly thought and so I found myself
sitting with this man in his living room
going over his videos his papers his
anger about the industry and saying like
he had seen the same exact commercial I
had seen of Jim Purdue saying that these
animals are treated humanely and farmers
are happy and he got so mad he was so
mad just like I was so mad
and as I was sitting there I realized
this this
person like I could have been him maybe
if I had Bor been born in a different
situation I could have been this man I
could have lived this life he's got the
same fire in his
belly and it was then that you know we
went on to then film I was working with
compassion and World farming at the time
we filmed we exposed it was a big deal
literally still dealing with the lawsuit
related to that um Wow 2014 yeah 10
years ago wow yeah they're trying to
depose me now for it but um had such an
impact and I realized that this this was
a
huge thing I had been missing like a
huge blind spot where I had just made
really wrong assumptions about who were
my ene who are my enemies and who are my
allies and so this this is where I
thought like one of my contributions one
of my specific contributions is to build
big tents that lots of people you don't
expect are going to get under and this
is very important to building power we
don't have enough power we don't have
enough issue salience you know we don't
have the ear of the government or
companies as much as we should for the
issue as it is and the way we do that is
to build power and we need to build
solidarity with anyone pushing in the
same direction as us and it doesn't have
to be exact they don't have to be our
exact you know values but we need to
build and that was a big change for me
and and a big shift in how I am act as
an activist yeah I guess two things come
to mind on that I guess my colleagues AR
in Allen do a lot of lobbying for Alters
of proteins and they've been remarkably
surprised that who are the Allies that
want to support them and you think maybe
Alters of proteins traditionally quite a
climate focused Democratic leaning thing
but actually people on the Republican
Republican side of the aisle are really
big fans for reasons of economic uh job
development food security being being
competitive on the international market
and saying actually some of the most
supportive people have been people
they've least expected and if they
didn't even try to get a meeting they
would never know so I think this idea of
unlikely allies is super important so
that in addition to your longevity in
the move in both of you you're the
presidents of two pretty major
organizations so probably acutely aware
of the organ the challenges facing the
movement so I guess I'm more Curious
over the past 20 years what's emerged
for you guys as kind of the key
challenges facing the movement today I
don't know what you're talking about
it's all very peaceful and easy going
yeah activist are super easy going
me um well you forwarded me this survey
which I hope you share with folks
because I think it's really interesting
where uh Apollo academic survey that's
correct um they they looked at they
contacted 120 you say should I say it
okay um uh since some research we did at
social change lab and a PO AP po
academic surveys we basically surveyed
12 academics who research uh social
movements in the lens of political
science and sociology and ask them a
bunch of questions and you can find that
on the Apollo academics surveys website
online but one of the questions was what
are the key reasons that movement failed
to achieve their goals and I actually
didn't have this Factor initially but
David kenidi said you need to add this
factor I can't believe I've included it
as an option and it was movement INF
fighting which actually was the top
Factor according to these 120 academics
why movements failed to achieve their
goals and that was pretty profound for
me because I didn't even think about it
and people think it's a top and I think
anecdotally it might be aive for you
guys as well yeah we we talked about it
today d i just tricked you into
answering the question for me so
basically I think as your survey points
out the number one reasons movements
fail is
infighting and um there's another word
another phrase which is called
horizontal hostility and the idea is
that when the power that you're trying
to change is so difficult and you're
really making very little progress you
have a frustration and you start taking
it out laterally on someone who's very
close to you but not exactly you so for
example vegans vegetarians right we're
really pushing in the same direction but
we start saying the way you're saying it
is the reason why we're failing and then
you spend all your energy fighting this
person who really should be you're
really aligned with more than you know
somebody who's like a big chicken
company or something and and horizontal
hostility ruins movements it causes
failures it wastes energy and it's
something we've talked a lot about and I
think one of the key things about
infighting is to just don't talk about
infighting just move on like correct you
know just we need we spend too much
energy even thinking and talking about
it we we actually just need to accept
that there are differences there are
going to be discomforts there's going to
be gnarly conversations and there is
going to be some hust but whatever
that's human nature move on like we're
still moving in the same direction and
it's okay and that's that's okay so you
think talking about it is um giving it
too much air time or or potentially even
like encouraging it because maybe
there's new people in the movement who
aren't aware of such you know polarizing
views so maybe it's giving it a platform
that it doesn't deserve to have I think
that um when when we experience
infighting
uh I I try to deal with it pretty calmly
pretty quickly and put it into
perspective and and simply say like
don't let the small differences be your
dictator right take a big step back
realize we're on the same team and move
on and like have a very mature approach
to this and then move on like we're not
talking about it anymore this person is
not your mortal enemy like right move on
yeah Sharon do you have any thoughts on
reducing infighting yeah I mean I I'd
heard it before but when I was speaking
with um James this morning he mentioned
the the specific data I think in
fighting isn't the cause I think it's a
symptom and I think it's a symptom of
two things one a lack of a clear
campaign goal
Mission and second uh a lack of
character development in all of us
Advocates and activists when when we're
thinking about us and our ego and what
we did and our work and not about the
mission so I think if we think about the
big moments in history and I I love when
Kennedy said we're going to the Moon
before the end of the decade no matter
what it takes and everyone was like
that's not going to happen that it's not
going to happen you know what I don't
know but I think we got to the
Moon a conspiracy coming out there
we got to the moon and this was because
there was a very clear Mission we need
to get to the moon everyone had Clarity
on what they needed to do and I think it
was bigger than the people who were
involved in the specific you know in the
specific processes so for me it's really
infighting is just a symptom of two
things one is we need to develop our
character all of us as advocates as
people as activists we need to
understand that our egos are sometimes
get in the way my ego gets in the way
many many times that we have to stop
complaining we have to stop blaming
other people for what doesn't go right
we have to have the courage to give
feedback and to tell people what they
need to hear to make them stronger
Advocates and they have to find the
courage to tell us and most important ly
we need to understand that we have a
mission that is saving animal rights I
like to talk about animal rights and
that this is far bigger than us it's not
only far bigger than us but it's far
bigger than the people who came before
us the people like Jill Phillips uh who
died uh we've heard this week that
Australia and the UK banned the live
transport of animals woo yeah 50
years Jill Phillips died a mother died
defending
that and I think it's so important that
we understand that we are part of a
history a present and a future that is
much bigger than us and that we put our
egos aside and even ourselves aside and
we commit ourselves to the mission that
there's animals are our mission the most
important mission for most of the people
who are here it always has to be about
animals is this the best thing for
animals and there we will find I think a
lot of Solace to infighting because
you're not focused on you you're focused
on external something that is bigger
than you so I would say it's a symptom
of perhaps what I mentioned yeah yeah
there there's one great saying by Paul
Paul angler who wrote the book this is
an uprising great book recommend it and
the the saying is momentum creates
alignment alignment doesn't create
momentum and it's kind of what you guys
are saying it's like winning actually
when you're winning no one's really
fighting or squabbling over small things
but then when you're stuck in an AA and
not winning and well we are up against
something very big you turn on each
other so it is tough but I I guess
besides infighting does anything come to
mind for either of you in terms of other
big challenges that we're facing
nowadays as a movement at large well
resources of course yes please donate
for any funders in the
room yeah I think in the last uh my my
understandings in the last year the
there's been a decrease by 10% of giving
um to farm animals in the United States
that's reflected in the work we can do
you know that's a challenge and we have
to figure out how to build power and
build Alliance and allegiance to our
cause so that people give more we at the
same time though I will say you know
Sharon and I've been doing this a long
time we did the work on a lot less money
before um it's it's not a it's not
doomsday it's not a but at some you know
we do need more money helps money helps
you know we could reach more people we
could have more power with more money
yeah I think that's a challenge we're
facing acutely right now I don't think
it will last but we have we have that
challenge the movement I think is at a
stage where we need to really understand
who our victims are our victims are
animals I think we need to
establish that animals are victims of
this cruel Injustice in the world and
then we will be able though of course I
agree with Leah with related to
collaboration but then as a strong
unified Movement we will be able to kind
of work with with others but also bring
our mission forward I think if we think
about the strongest times when our
movement was just like killing it um and
we won't agree on all of the tactics or
even the strategies but we think about
things like Shack like the stop
Huntington Life Sciences to close
Huntington or laboratory sorry a a place
where they tested dogs uh for Viv
section we think about huntt sapping and
all those people who risked their lives
to stop Fox from being killed I think we
we're missing that and I think that a
part of it is that our job at animal
equality at least is to animals and I
think I mentioned it but I have a posted
on my computer where every single sent
every single paragraph I WR right I put
the word animals in it because it's so
easy for them to they all they lose in
coalitions they they lose and we want
them to win so I would say that is
really important that we that we just
bring animals everywhere I was at South
by Southwest which is a very famous like
Event in Austin there was absolutely no
talks about animals like and it's just
we we need to we need to do whatever it
takes to put animals on the agenda you
said that that animals lose in
coalitions can you maybe speak briefly
to what you mean by that this is not a
sentence a phrase I've come up with
myself I heard it from someone and I've
experienced it animals are
always they're always the
last they're they're they're they're
they're always the most insignificant
and they're always the most vulnerable
and we just need to
recognize that truth about our
victims in order to be able to I think
defend them appropriately in coalitions
there is uh issues that are more Salient
I I don't think it I can think it can be
done but I think that we also have to
take into account that issues that are
more Salient will probably probably take
that first spot but if we are focused on
making animal rights saland in itself
through the incredible work that Mercy
For Animals does with
investigations through the corporate
campaigns that we're winning promoting
some of the work that Greener by default
and other organizations are
doing I think then we will be able to
have the power to be at an equal stance
with other movements and bring forward
our like what we want for Animals my
experience is in coalitions animals get
you know they get pushed to the side
someone might have other experiences so
I think it's really important that we
build our strength as we are as aldf
says we are the lawyers of animals and
we will fight for them as the Shaq
campaign did as Huntington Life Sciences
did as many of you in this room and are
all of you in this room do whatever it
takes thank you yeah great we don't have
time to go into both of your very varied
pasts actually but I would encourage
anyone who gets the opportunity at a
conference or um any other event to
speak to you both in in much more depth
um than we're able to do now um I think
both of you have yeah just incredible
Journeys to share but for now we'd like
like two kind of top strategic Lessons
Learned um from you both you know what
are those key learnings what would you
like to pass on to perhaps new activists
or emerging leaders existing leaders in
the space who are open to to learnings
from you both Leah let's start with your
first one you were alluding to this
earlier that one of the key strategic
lessons that I've learned is that
success requires Focus so if you are
going to do something and you want to be
successful you have to prioritize you
have to say no there has to be a a very
important no to so that you can say yes
and focus on the things that will make a
difference and in that ask that you make
that campaign that campaign needs to be
as simple as possible and clear as
possible and we have I have made so many
mistakes where you know especially
working in coalitions speaking of
coalitions where then you're negotiating
like what looks like a like a contract
for buying a house you know but really
where we've had success is where we're
able to say cage free that's it cage
free one ask everybody can imagine it in
their head so that's a really important
thing can somebody imagine it very
easily can a lay person just imagine it
so simple clear focused and if you can't
do that your likelihood as you get more
complicated less clear less focused
you're likely Hood goes down and down
and down for succeeding I think the
other one is what I've say was saying
earlier about seeking out solidarity
with anyone who is pushing in the same
direction as you and there's a a phrase
we use which is that there's the tyy of
the small differences and we become
captive to these we to this Tyrant that
instead of focusing on the bigger
picture we focus on these tiny little
differences we have and we spend all our
energy on it so building solidarity and
ignoring this this the small differences
yeah I completely agree and I'm actually
going to give an example I think one of
the most important things we need to do
is build our character as activists and
I want to actually share leam my Pro
doesn't even know I'm going to share
this but once I was on a telephone call
I'm not supposed to tell anyone about
that I'm you it's
good I was on a telephone call with Leah
and we were talking about prop 12 there
was this incredible win in California to
get animals out of cages and I remember
there was this person of course I'm not
going to identify them and they were
just criticizing this and this and this
and this and Leah just stopped a all and
said what we need to do is we need to
get these animals out of cages and I
will never forget that because it was
such an example of character and focus
on what you can control like stop
complaining stop you know bitching about
this stop sorry if I can't say bitching
stop you know that's fine and I'll never
forget when she said what we need to do
is we need to get these animals about
out of cages and that's what prop 12 is
about I think Leah is an example of
someone who has the character to be an
activist and a leader so I would say
build your character build your your
humility build your courage build your
discipline uh there's there's nothing
more important that's what you're going
to fall back on secondly I would say
you're probably wrong I'm probably wrong
um about everything or
probably um I remember Jan S Freddy from
anim International had us at a
conference in care a few years ago and
he said okay stand up if you've been in
the movement over 10
years and sit down if everything you
thought then is nothing you think is
wrong now and everyone sat down most
people maybe it's one person who stood
up right yeah so we're prob we're
becoming more sophisticated and
knowledgeable and especially we have
organizations like animal think tank we
have organizations like fanalytics the
research that organizations like uh like
Humane League or us or um animal
equality or Mercy For Animals is doing
but just assume just have that humility
right it's it's
it's you're probably wrong and I would
say as a response to that learn as much
as you can I have spent so many years
doing things without reading a book that
exactly
explained how to develop a theory of
change or what a strategy was or how to
run an effective campaign or call a
campaigner from Green Peace and ask them
I kind of with my team members we
figured it out ourselves we we did it we
did a decent job but we would have been
so much faster if I had had the humility
to understand I don't know what I'm
doing I need to learn so spend time
learning about strategy about other
movements and about just reading as much
as possible and speaking in events like
this to as many people as possible
people like Mia or people like Leah uh
or people like I can't remember your
name I'm sorry but uh people who've been
30 years in the movement I mean it's
Priceless it's Priceless there's 30
years in the movement can you imagine
it's it's Priceless we'll definitely
take some reading resources from you
both as well that we can link in the
show notes if there's been anything you
can think of that's been particularly
inspiring for for your Journeys either
now as Leaders or or in the runup um so
yeah we will link those following the
podcast yeah and two things we didn't
mention at the beginning but we're going
to do at least 50 minutes of like the
live Q&A so folks can pop questions in
the ho app please do that because we
don't have that many good questions uh
so please start adding stuff in and up
voting or whatever and we can ask Leah
and Sharon that in a minute and then
maybe I'll ask question and you can do
the controversial question Amy because
oh I don't want oh there's a
controversial question oh yeah we know
it's coming anyway a what question
controversial controversal wouldn't ask
yeah yeah I'm leaving right now not that
one not that one I
guess see you guys spoke about kind of
lessons that more like strategic for the
movement you know success requires Focus
you're probably wrong I'm kind of
curious to hear about like personal
lessons you've learned as an ad Advocate
a person whether it's to do with
resilience whatever I guess anything com
to mind for you Leah maybe first the
most important one that I have to remind
myself pretty
regularly is to not confuse the
magnitude of our task with my
selfworth and I'll just repeat that so
don't confuse the magnitude of our task
with your self force can you explain
what that means I don't one more time
yeah you need to explain it don't just
say it again oh okay what I mean is
we're up against this really difficult
task that's very slow and we're very
attached to an outcome and we want it to
happen soon we want animals to be
liberated
and we spend our life energy on this we
spend our waking days our creativity our
brain power our physical bodies our
spiritual bodies working on this and
when we're seemingly failing not
succeeding in the in the sense that it's
not over it can be really difficult and
there's a lot of of of challenges with
that and what I think is really
important is don't confuse that with
your worthiness and by that I mean your
worthiness to rest your worthiness
to be joyful your worthiness to have uh
friends and vacation and um and that and
also your worthiness in the sense that
you are worth something to the animals
and what I try to do
sometimes is imagine how the animals see
me
imagine all the animals you've ever
helped whether it be a petition you
signed or something you campaigned on
and just imagine because they can't talk
that imagine what it's like to be them
seeing you and they are very grateful
and you are very worthy of this fight
and you're very worthy of this life and
the rest and all the things and it can
be very confusing when you're when the
task is so hard and not not to confuse
those two things I also o think in that
it's a lot of what you're saying about
ego and you're a very amazing well- read
person especially on stoicism yes I
actually have my stoicism Cote here
ready for right ready I'm teing I'm
teeing you up I'm getting you ready but
it's this idea of ego that you have to
let go of and the realize this is a very
long task and we are we are there's a
long I like to think I have a a bigger
thought that there's like this okay now
I'm going to get super hippie dippy can
I go for it I'm doing it I'm doing it
like there's
this should I we're ready we're ready
deep breath everyone there's like this
giant Divine project of building a more
compassionate world right that
compassion is the project and that we
are just soldiers in that project and
that it's not very spiritual and
compassionate so that's as far as I can
go all right James that's the original
and this one's better yeah it's like you
know you're that we are there's this
huge project of building a compassionate
world that lasts before we were here and
will last after we're here and we just
drew the straw of like you're the
soldiers for
animals and so just do that job and and
your ego's not part of this you're just
one of the soldiers that have been
assigned to build a more compassionate
world for animals which is part of a
bigger project of a more compassionate
World which is improving the whole world
yeah and that's like I try to keep that
pretty close to my heart so that I don't
get think thinking I'm some kind of hero
that's not the point like it's not about
me I'm just like marching along doing my
job and don't worry about how it turns
out I think that humility I
mean I really don't and I think it's
important for organizations to think
about
this I you know I'm the president of
animal
equality I'm an activist that's all I am
I'm an
activist and I'm in this position for
some reasons I think I can do a good
job but I'm
not more important or less important
than the person who is doing the
accounting or the person who is engaging
with restaurants to get them to
introduce more plan-based options or of
course the person who's doing
investigations we're just we're not
we're one we're one move
and I think it's really really important
that we understand that this is much
bigger than ourselves and then for the
stoic
quote um so I I I'll be honest I
struggle and D knows this world D is my
colleague one of my one of my be best
friends and probably the person I admire
the most in the world so d sayos i can I
I sometimes you know you get this email
you get this message and you get
frustrated and you're like oh God how
can how can they how can this happen how
can this person not get this and it's
all ego and uh there's the stoic quote
is to tolerant with others and strict
with
yourself and just taking that step back
and not responding from a place of ego
or anger or frustration or just
understanding like yeah this is part of
the work that I've signed up to do for
animals and the best thing I can maybe
do now is just go for a walk and respond
to the email later on so that's a very
specific example that also ties into
strategy and
impulses uh we have so many impulses to
do certain things that we think are the
right strategy or the right tactic
but just take that step back like yeah
it was your idea no it was an idea make
sure that you do your SWAT analysis
strength weaknesses Etc make sure that
you check with other people make sure
that you have a solid ground to be able
to push or move that strategy forward
and all of that can just be summarized
in one word that is be humble be as
humble as possible and the animals will
win thank you what does the landscape
look like from all those years ago can
you believe what you have achieved
within this time I know we've spoken
about the journey still ahead of us but
actually such a mammoth amount of time
and and progress you know within those
20 years do you feel you know optimistic
about the achievements that we've had
within those those last 20 years it's
both it's you have to be patient and
understand the time things take time but
also as an example in Spain I always
like to put
1975 lgtbq people were put in prison
2004 the president decides to pass the
marriage equality act that's 30 years so
yes it takes time when you're in 1975
you're like this is never going to
happen yeah it happened it happened in
2004 and then tons of countries uh
followed so the progress that I have
seen in the last 20 years related to
animals is spectacular when I left
Madrid I'm from Spain there was one
vegan restaurant or two there's like 50
or 60 there's like a vegan restaurant
opening every week it's all junk food
but it's really
good the changes we've seen with
companies I mean people would tell us
like you're never going to get hands out
of cages and you know we've we've we've
basically changed the industry in so
many countries where these animals of
course their conditions are still bad
but they aren't in absolute agony
without being able to flip their wings
in a cage and the same legislatively and
I think if we look at countries like
Mexico we look at countries like Brazil
we look at countries like the UK we're
beginning to see the ultimate win for
animals that it's when it becomes not
only cultural but when it becomes
legislation and uh that's something I'm
very proud of what I what we do at
animal equality and our team members who
are here do it animal equality they're
focused on you know that that big
picture like changing the culture and
changing legislative work awesome Leah
ditto no oh well kind of I mean like 25
years ago not a single company had any
cage cage or crate policies now
thousands do thanks to our efforts 25
years ago there was Zero legislation for
cages and crates now many countries many
states do there was no possible Burger
there was no impossible Whopper yeah and
now it's become a normalized option for
you know you're saying also this is a
shrimp podcast I own it is may I just
yes you
did Mercy For Animals launched a shrimp
campaign this week I mean come on have
you told me 25 years ago that I'd be
launching a shrimp
campaign and be really stoked about it
and think we're going going to succeed
in protecting shrimp I would be like
you're bananas that's not happening I
mean we're activists so we are eternal
optimist we're hopeless optimists like
we just you can never break our optimism
yeah ever yeah amazing we're going to
move on to the question and answer but
in terms of our questions thank you so
much um just getting to know you both
more even just in preparation for this
session has been yeah incredibly
inspiring for me with you both being
such prominent and frankly badass
leaders in the space um so yeah thank
you so much for your time our thank you
it was really
fun it's not done yet don't worry don't
worry top question is good I like it I
think you will both be a bit biased so
it was a well-placed question what is
your opinion regarding the movement
launching new organizations and
strategies versus those same resources
going to the largest 3 to four groups
considering the trade-offs between orgs
with big muscle Le has been working out
um oh my God versus being Nimble and
small so I don't know maybe Sharon you
want to take yeah why not I can go first
I think it's very important to
support uh the large of organizations
that have a history of success strong
leadership strong teams and that have
the infrastructure to do things like
undercover investigations I mean Leah
knows this doing an undercover
investigation is basic basically like
very very complicated especially when
the person goes undercover and you need
resources you need talented people you
need lawyers you need cameras Etc so I
think it's fundamental that funds
continue going to organizations like
Mercy For Animals animal
equality I also think it's important
that new organizations with new ideas
and new leaderships are
created um I'd be cautious in uh
ensuring that the growth
is um how would I say that I like that
that it's a it is a constant growth that
we can keep up with as a movement and
that we don't end up and this happened
in Spain with sanctuaries where suddenly
there was 50 sanctuaries and most of
them closed down where we end up with a
lot of organizations who are are missing
the resources or are missing the
knowledge or are missing the ability to
be able to um to continue to continue
forward so they'll of course have the
support of animal equality but I think
it's really important that we have
there's a deep thought and I think this
does happen in the effect of alterist
movement a deep thought about okay what
is
needed who's going to be the person
who's going to be the founder what are
they going to do what is the theory of
change and how are we going to measure
success so um I think as long as that
happens in a way that is contained and
constrained and you know measured I I I
think it's I think it's a very very good
thing but I think it's also important
that we have Grassroots campaigns like
direct action everywhere and I think
it's very important that there's
organizations like Mercy for animal yeah
nice I think there a funny thing you
mentioned by resources at the same time
we're probably most acutely talking
about and aware of resource challenges
and yet we have the most incubators
we've ever had so there is a funny thing
there but anyway I think the problem is
not that there's too many groups or too
many approaches we just don't have
enough money that's that's it like
that's the problem we should be
experimenting we don't nothing we're
very in their infancy as a movement we
need a lot of experimenting it's good to
have a lot of things being tried we also
need to stop when some we see
something's not working we we're not
good enough at that as a movement like
say that didn't work shut it down shut
it down um you know there have been a
few examples but I think the the real
problem is we need to be getting more
money into the movement not doing less
things you know I I think you need the
big groups you need the small groups you
need the Nimble groups you need to
establish groups you need all of it how
do you balance being a movement leader
amongst other aspirations like for
example being a parent um Leah I'm sure
you can relate to this one but also
pursuing other goals
well well I mean Sharon and I are like
at a very similar place in life I feel
yeah where maybe we can call it a not a
not a middle-age crisis but a middle AG
expansion yeah middle-age middle-age
wonder wonder
expansion it's very it's a very
important point in which I now spend an
hour and a half every morning for myself
and I have three kids who are still you
know school age kids so you know I
exercise I meditate I Journal uh I eat a
good breakfast and then I start my day
and like you can't tell me you don't
have time for that because I have three
kids and I'm a CEO I have time for it
you have time for it and I it's an
important ritual for me every morning to
create boundaries and balance um
sometimes I'm bad at it and immediately
I see how I behave when I'm bad at that
right I see myself like the things you
were saying about being reactive not
having a clear mind um you know reacting
emotionally those sorts of things start
to happen when I don't take the invest
the time in those thing in that balance
um so I've I've learned the hard way but
at this point I'm not willing to
sacrifice those things in order to have
balance so you feel like it's possible
to to have both it's not just possible
it's critical for longevity of of being
an activist you can't do this work for a
long time if you don't have those
rituals in place so very similar to Leah
I even in this conference I decided that
I I had to cancel a breakfast with Leah
she's better at me than boundaries than
I am actually I was really looking
forward to but I was like I'm not
starting any day before 10 p.m. 10 10:
a.m. oh my wow 10 a.m. please it's about
to get started and I just I just wake up
I make D her coffee uh D is not my
partner she's just my best
friend I make D her coffee we chat
little I do some yoga I do some
meditation I read some of my books and
then by 9:30 10 p.m. I'm ready to go
down and you know I think um having done
that I think you can notice the calmness
in me having done that has just made
this whole experience of coming to a
conference not something that is
stressful but something that I'm like
yeah I'm going to wake up in the morning
I'm going to have some breakfast I'm
going to chat with dul I'm going to call
my husband so I'm going to read a little
uh so just making sure that I'm I'm I'm
really really uh taking care of myself
and just recently nothing serious I went
through a a a Health crisis uh I I was I
was fine I I surv like there was no I
was going to survive yeah I wasn't going
to die but it really put into perspect I
mean 43 and it really put into
perspective the need for me to eat
healthy to exercise eyes to also fill my
soul with the things I love I love art
so does Leah I love reading I love
wonder I love nature and that feeds my
soul to be able to then bring that to
animals so I would say just you know
everyone knows inside themselves and
herself or himself and herself or their
self how what what their boundaries are
we know so just listen to your s and
just take take care of animals but also
take care of what you need to Be an
Effective activist so the questions have
been too easy so far the crowd think
so to finish question end with this one
no no no it's not that one it's not that
one it's not that one you guys will have
to find out later what that question was
no this one is okay last question we'll
wrap up but it was this is a big one so
what do you think the movement needs to
do over the next few years to make sure
we fulfill the thousand of corporate
commitments that we have outstanding oh
very different vibe Leah thoughts oh
we're getting serious serious it's 10
p.m. going from Spiritual Awakening to
hardcore activ back to that
okay uh I I have a lot of thoughts on
this it's a focus of Mercy For Animals
there are thousands of commitments
coming to fruition over the next couple
of years it needs to be our singular
Focus like we have we put all this
effort in we're so close to ending cages
uh for hens in particular we need to I
think one of the key things we need to
do is have CL Clarity of roles in the
movement and Clarity of focus um it
should it should be a big Focus we
worked so hard to get all those
commitments they're coming to fruition
the companies are waiting for us to do
nothing yeah we can't let that happen
the hens are relying on us to get them
out of their cages to put the nail in
the coffin of that system I couldn't
agree more um I really resonated with
what Leah said about uh just making
making sure that we're all being
strategic and not doing the same thing
that's one of the reasons why in the US
we decided to focus on crates because so
many companies like Denny's had made uh
commitments in
2012 um that they haven't followed
through and we have the amazing doct
Devon Deere here with us who's our
institutional Outreach manager and uh
she's focused exactly on that on on
finding out as much as she can about the
industry she's incredibly knowledgeable
and making sure that uh the industry is
moving towards a crate free cagefree
future but also we need strong campaigns
and um I think that's something we've
really
understood I mean at the beginning at
animal equality but we kind of had a
time and and now we're back to really
badass campaigning and when I say badass
campaigning and Devon knows this like
one of our campaigners Dane says things
to me sometimes and I'm like oh Jesus I
love that I love that you've said this
but there's on sign on signal but
there's no way we're going to do this so
we need bold we need bold campaigning uh
to be able to keep these companies
accountable and what campaigns do like
we were at the headquarters of Denny's
and and to present signatures and we
were able to get Media Fox News and you
know Denny's is we don't know where they
are but they're they're closer than they
were before and finally I would say we
need to start locking legislative change
as I was talking about lgtbq or or
same-sex marriage actually in Spain I
think it was like 60 70% were in favor
of marriage equality uh when it was
passed it was a huge huge counter
movement now it's the country in the
world where it's it's like at 90% like
no one like everyone agrees with it so
we must understand that yes culture
changes legislation but legislation also
can change culture so let's make sure
that we're focusing on legislative
changes building on those campaigns
building on those corporate Outreach or
those institutional Outreach objectives
and also building on the
plantbased objectiv so people when they
decide to go vegan they just have vegan
options you know it's just easier to be
vegan than to not be vegan I would say
that's the next step for for for our
movement yes thanks so much everyone for
um being with us taking time out on your
Friday evening uh you could have been at
the bar but you decided to be here thank
you so much um again thank you so much
Leah and Sharon um it's been a joy and
such important lessons for us all to
learn for the next 20 years right we'll
be here yeah absolutely let's repeat
this in 20 years
um so yeah please just um one more time
for Leah and Sharon
[Applause]
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