What’s It Like To Be An Undercover Investigator

Hi, everyone. I'm Sharon Núñez, President and 
Co-founder of Animal Equality and I'm joined here  
today by a very very special person and guest that 
is Sean Thomas. And Sean for the last five years  
has led Animal Equality's Investigation 
Department worldwide in eight countries.  
He is Animal Equality's International Director of 
Investigations. Hi, Sean. [Sean] Hi, Sharon. Yeah,  
it's great to be here. [Sharon] So investigations 
are at the core of what Animal Equality does.  
They are our core program. Animal Equality has 
been doing investigations since its foundation.  
We've done investigations in all of the eight 
countries that we're working in, and thanks to  
Animal Equality's investigations we've been able 
to convince companies to pass animal welfare laws,  
change laws and policies in different 
countries...reach millions through the media.  
Our investigations have been in the New York 
Times, on the BBC, on CNN, on El Pais Corrieri,  
on the Indian Times, reaching millions of people 
and educating them about the cruelties of the  
animal industry. So that's what we're going to be 
speaking about today. We're going to be answering  
the questions, your questions, that are 
related to what happens in that investigation,  
how does someone become an investigator and the 
backstage of our Investigations Department. So  
I'm going to start with a question for Sean, and 
the question is to get us warmed up and talking  
about this important subject. Sean, what was the 
investigation that has impacted you the most?  
[Sean] I would have to say it was the first 
time that I was working undercover at a pig  
farm. This would be in the late 1990s and the 
technology was very different from what we have  
now in terms of cameras, and it was such an 
intense experience. It was probably the most  
violent situations that I've ever witnessed 
and I learned a lot being on my own, not  
really having a mentor around me at the time. And 
so all of the things that I witnessed, which was  
just horrific abuse of these mother pigs that 
were kept on a breeding farm in North Carolina,  
and figuring out how to document this and 
how to do the actual job of working on a  
pig farm...it was...it changed kind of my view of 
investigations and how important they are. It was  
also an investigation that resulted in the first 
felony animal cruelty charges against workers  
on a factory farm in the U.S., so it had this 
incredible impact kind of emotionally within the  
legal system. And then, I think, just shaped how 
I wanted to conduct investigations in the future.  
And a lot of what I pass on to investigators 
now is kind of based from those experiences.  
[Sharon] Thanks, Sean. And I also want to mention 
that Sean has done investigations in seven  
countries worldwide and he's visited hundreds 
of facilities. One of the investigations that  
Sean participated in with another organization 
actually resulted in the largest meat recall  
in the history of the United States and deemed 
animals not being allowed to be considered to be  
considered food any longer. I wanted to talk about 
an experience that was really intense for me.  
Between 2011 and 2012 Animal Equality carried out 
one of the first investigations into rabbit farms  
to ever be conducted in Spain and one of the 
largest investigations in rabbit farms to ever  
be conducted in Europe. We investigated 72 farms 
and four rabbit slaughterhouses. And, of course,  
rabbits are furry, they're beautiful animals, and 
I felt a very strong connection. But specifically  
during one of the investigations where I was 
actually joined by photographer Jo-Anne McArthur.  
We went into a farm to take some photos and as we 
were leaving we noticed in one of the trash, one  
of the big trash cans, that there was a plastic 
bag. And then there was, as you can see it in the  
picture, there was a little bit of movement. So we 
went over. We opened the bag and there was a live  
rabbit. So we took the rabbit. We brought him with 
us immediately to a vet. We named him Guerullo.  
He was very very tiny, very very small. And, 
unfortunately, Guerullo died a few hours later  
at the vet. He was so sick and his internal organs 
were so damaged that he could he couldn't make it  
beyond the vet, beyond the farm. But I had a very 
strong emotional connection with that animal and  
it reminded me of how animals are so discarded. 
They're just thrown into the trash when they're  
still alive because there's no economic profit 
that can be made from their lives and that's  
something that is very present to us at Animal 
Equality. We see animals as sentient living beings  
and we're fighting an industry that sees animals 
as trash. Just throw them into the bin, you know,  
when there's no economic benefit to their lives. 
So let's go into some of the questions that our  
followers, our wonderful followers and supporters 
sent us. I think we can both answer this one,  
Sean, but you can go first, of course. What led 
you to becoming an investigator? [Sean] Yeah,  
I was interested in animal rights since I was a 
young child. At 10 I tried to become a vegetarian,  
didn't have much support at the time from 
my family. But then was vegetarian again  
as a teenager and then vegan at 18. So, in about 
1990, I was vegan and just getting more involved  
in animal rights. And, at the time, I started 
a student animal rights group and I happened  
to live very close to a large laboratory 
breeding facility where all of the monkeys  
that were used in research at the university 
were being held. And so I used my...I was,  
at the time, I was going through anthropology. 
I wanted to be a primatologist when I graduated.  
And so I just used that as kind of a cover to go 
inside the laboratory and take some pictures and  
then launched this campaign. And the more I became 
involved in campaigning for animal rights...at the  
time there weren't a lot of images of farmed 
animals that kind of demonstrated a lot of the  
things that we were talking about. We were always 
talking about the fact that pigs are castrated or  
they're, like you say, animals are discarded. 
And we were talking about all these things  
and people would say, oh, but like what proof do 
you have that this actually happens? You're just  
fervent animal rights activists. I said, well, 
that's a fair question, so we need to, you know,  
develop these images. And so that's when I kind 
of embarked on this journey of just traveling  
around with a video camera myself and then became 
involved with some other larger organizations. And  
from then on was undercover that entire time. 
So I always say the only job I've actually had,  
the kind of professional job I've actually had, 
is doing investigations. Then went directly from  
university into doing that until joining Animal 
Equality now and managing investigations. [Sharon]  
Yeah, well, it's a very important job to 
have that means so much to animals. My  
story is similar in the sense that when Animal 
Equality started, we started in 2006 in Spain,  
there was almost no footage of what 
happened inside factory farms in Spain. And  
I remember we would stand outside Burger King or 
McDonald's, or we would stand on the main plaza,  
and we would show these pictures of animals 
in farms and slaughterhouses in the U.S. Maybe  
they were even...maybe some of them were even 
taken by Sean. And people would say to us, oh,  
that doesn't happen in Spain. That doesn't happen 
here. And it became the realization that, well,  
it does happen. We know it happens but we need 
to show it to the public. We need to have actual  
footage inside farms and slaughterhouses in Spain. 
The first investigation we did as Animal Equality  
was as rudimentary as one of our Co-founders Jose 
getting on a bus and traveling to slaughterhouses  
in the north of Spain and filming as much as he 
could. We still use that footage today. It was  
on national newspapers in Spain and artist Banksy 
used it as part of one of his art installations.  
And I quickly came to realize that if we wanted 
to do the investigations of this magnitude that  
we needed to get media attention and create public 
awareness about what was happening to animals. I  
needed to be involved, too. So for me it really 
was about just wanting to tell people the stories  
and the cruelties that happened behind factory 
farms. Let's go to another question. This one  
is from Juan and he's asking us, 'Are you vegan?' 
I can take that one first. Juan, yes, I am vegan.  
I've been a vegan since 2001, so for 21 years. 
And, of course, for me, it's a fundamental part of  
who I am. I don't understand doing the work that 
I do, dedicating my life to reducing the suffering  
of animals, and contributing to that suffering 
in any way. So, yes, I'm a vegan. What about you,  
Sean? I guess that it's a yes, too. [Sean] Yeah, 
similarly, I think as soon as I went to university  
I became vegan and I was cooking for myself and 
I didn't know anyone who was vegan at that time.  
And I know the first nights of 
living by myself and trying to make  
vegan food and not realizing how long you had to 
cook chickpeas before you could eat them was a  
rude awakening. But, yeah, things have changed 
a bit since then and it's so much easier to be  
vegan. There's just no reason not to make that 
switch. [Sharon] Yeah, absolutely. I remember the  
first time I bought soy milk at a supermarket and 
I tried it and it was really bad. 20 years ago. It  
wasn't here in the U.S. It tasted like grass and 
I was like, oh, this is my life now. But anyway,  
thankfully there's so many vegan options now. It's 
so easy to be vegan that, yeah, there's a lot more  
people that are going vegan. Okay. Let's answer 
this question by Chela. Thanks, Chela, for your  
question. This one's for you, Sean. What does a 
typical day as an investigator consist of? [Sean]  
Yeah, and so there are a lot of different days and 
I would say a lot of them are not the same. But  
I'll start with kind of an experience here in the 
U.S. when I was working undercover and I would be  
taking jobs in slaughterhouses or on factory farms 
and, you know, you're waking up extremely early,  
so maybe at 4:30 in the morning, and preparing 
the camera equipment. And, you know, having to do  
just your normal daily routine at the same time. 
And oftentimes I'd be driving up to 45 minutes  
just through these rural areas to get 
to the farm or to the slaughterhouse  
and then you're, you know, at the, say, a pig 
farm. You're showering in. You're, you know,  
doing all of the work that everyone is doing on 
the farm, like if at some of these breeding farms  
there are litters of piglets being born every 
day and so you're just constantly working. Or,  
you know, at the slaughterhouse, as soon as you 
arrive you're bringing cows off the trucks. Or,  
with pigs, kind of moving them around constantly. 
And so it's very intense and it's a lot of manual  
labor. Usually, our shifts would be anywhere from 
eight to 12 hours of work where you might get  
15-minute breaks and then a short lunch break. And 
so, then afterwards the routine continues. And so  
if you're working at a farm you might get 
back home at about 4:30 in the afternoon,  
but then the second job begins and you have to 
switch back into kind of the clerical work of all  
of the organization that goes into looking at the 
files and taking down your notes of what you saw  
and who did what. And so it's kind of this 
grueling schedule and then trying to fall asleep  
and repeat it over and over again for weeks 
at a time. That's before there's often just  
days and days of driving around and locating the 
facilities and, you know, when I was in Mexico  
going to these slaughterhouses there, we weren't 
working at the slaughterhouse but we were  
talking our way inside to be able to film. So 
we would be up at two or three in the morning  
and arriving at the slaughterhouses before 
they opened and began work and having to  
negotiate our way inside and then 
wait for the animals to arrive. And  
so it's this intensity that lasts for days 
and in some cases for weeks and months.
[Sharon] Wow. And, what would you say is...you've 
done so many undercover investigations,  
a hundred facilities...what is 
the most difficult part for you?
[Sean] I think there are moments when you 
feel the kind of, the excitement of, okay,  
we've gotten inside. The filming was successful 
today and everything is working great. It's  
maybe a couple of weeks later when you're getting 
very tired just from the monotony of the schedule  
and then all of the additional organization 
and work that needs to be done. And just  
that repetition, I know, can just be 
really straining. There were some jobs  
at this pig farm in Oklahoma where I got some 
serious injuries to my shoulders and hands, and  
you have to just kind of keep working through 
that and not want to jeopardize the integrity of  
the investigation by having to leave early or not 
being able to be in a position to film what you  
need to film. So that kind of mental exhaustion is 
the most difficult part to combat when you start  
doubting if it will have an effect after you're 
done. Does it really matter if we stay an extra  
day to try and get a photo that's better than the 
ones that we have or show something in a clearer  
way? And it's, you have to fight through that and 
say, yeah, it's better to have a hundred photos or  
videos of this than just to have one and think 
that you've done enough because we know that,  
like the example you're saying with trying to 
convince people, they want to see and they want  
to see it from a local perspective, or they want 
to see it from a company that makes some impact on  
their lives. And so that kind of mental fortitude 
to keep pushing through and be able to get these  
clear examples of what's happening to animals 
on factory farms can be the biggest challenge  
sometimes. [Sharon] Yeah, and that's so important 
and one of the reasons why also at Animal Equality  
we've always done these very large 
investigations. So in India, we did an  
investigation into the dairy industry and our 
team there visited over 145 dairies in Spain.  
The investigation we released into pig farms 
was the biggest investigation to ever be done  
inside the pig industry in Spain and we visited 
over 170 pig farms. And as I was mentioning before  
with the rabbit investigation I talked about 
in the beginning, we visited 70 rabbit farms  
throughout Spain and this is because we want to 
show that abuse is systemic. That these aren't  
individual cases. This isn't happening in one 
place that we, you know, randomly visited this  
is happening at all of the farms and all of the 
slaughterhouses that we visit. We find cases of  
course of animal suffering because the system 
causes suffering, but also of animal cruelty  
and animal abuse. So it's really important 
to ensure that we have, as you're saying,  
as much documentation as possible. Our next 
question is from Carrie, Wendy, and Guillermo.  
Have you ever been suspected of working 
undercover? If so, how did you handle  
the suspicion? I've never done undercover 
investigations like the ones that Sean has done  
and that we're carrying out in some countries 
now, like the U.S. the UK, Germany, and others.  
I have entered farms sometimes with farmer's 
permission. And actually, it was in the farm where  
we found Guerullo that was in the plastic bag and 
the trash can, where, after hours taking photos  
and asking pictures, one of the farmers...there 
was two farmers...one of them, he was kind of like  
playing along. He didn't seem to be suspicious at 
all. But then his son came and he was clearly very  
suspicious of having three women there asking all 
sorts of strange questions about rabbits because,  
you know, they liked rabbits and taking pictures 
and videos and going, you know, under the cages  
to film. And he said, well he started asking, 
'Where are you from?' We're like, 'Oh, we're,  
you know, we're from we're from Canada and we 
just love rabbits. And he started, he wanted to  
see our passports and he just wanted all sorts 
of information. He wanted to take photos,  
so we suddenly were in, we were in a big hurry and 
we rushed out and drove away from the farm. And  
thankfully it was one of the last investigations 
we were doing in that area in Catalonia. And  
actually, that investigation, that 70 farms 
that we investigated throughout Spain,  
was one of the reasons why the European 
Parliament in 2017, I think it was,  
voted to improve the welfare of rabbits throughout 
the European Union. That went then to the European  
Commission that is like the Executive branch 
of the European Parliament and, unfortunately,  
they didn't bring forward changes to rabbit 
welfare legislation as strong as we wanted them.  
But it was very important for public 
debate in Spain, public debate in Europe,  
and most importantly public debate at the 
European Parliament. So I'm sure you have a  
more intense story, Sean. Have you ever been 
suspected of working undercover and how did  
you handle that suspicion? [Sean] Yeah, it's 
funny. I don't. I never had anyone confront me  
about working undercover. I definitely worked on 
farms where there was a lot of talk about what  
they would do if they ever found an undercover 
investigator working at the farm. In one place,  
the person carried a gun in their truck all 
the time. Just a matter of, you know, personal  
preference. And they just said they, you know, if 
they ever found anyone they would just go to their  
truck and get the gun and shoot them. At another 
pig farm that I worked at, in the training for  
that farm job, I actually, they actually played 
the investigation that I did at the previous farm.  
These were two huge...it was the top or the 
second largest pig farming company in the U.S  
and then the third largest. And I'd worked at the 
second largest and now I was working at the third  
largest. And they played the investigation and I 
thought that they were about to say we know that  
this was you. And then they just turn to everyone 
in the room and said, 'Okay, make sure that no one  
gets caught doing any of this type of stuff on the 
farm.' So it was just a matter of kind of sitting  
there and keeping a straight face and then kind of 
laughing about it to myself as I drove to work the  
next day. [Sharon] Wow! Iron nerves, you know, 
just to stand there while they're showing you  
this footage and thinking that they're going to 
turn to you. Did you just stand there? And were  
you like thinking of something or, I don't know, 
running out or something? Or just like, 'Okay,  
just let's wait through this one out.' [Sean] 
Yeah, my impulse actually was to kind of smile  
a bit when the footage came on because it was 
such a coincidence. But I was just staring at it  
and with no expression and just was waiting to 
kind of say, 'Hey, why are you playing this?  
I don't know what this is about.' But 
they were actually using it as kind of a  
point to lecture that, 'Hey, watch out. Don't get 
caught on camera like these other companies did.'
[Sharon] Mhm mhm. So let's move on to a 
question by Karen and Gabriel. Does it  
take a certain personality to be able to work 
as an investigator? What do you look for in  
candidates? So as I was saying, Sean oversees 
our Investigations Department globally in eight  
different countries. And he's interviewed and 
trained dozens if not, I don't know hundreds,  
but definitely dozens of people. So will you give 
us a little bit of insight into the personality  
of what you're looking for in an investigator or 
in a candidate for an undercover investigation,  
Sean? [Sean] Yeah, and it's, a lot of people want 
to be an investigator and want to help animals  
and you can certainly help animals in many 
ways um because a lot of people just aren't  
suited to being investigators. And it does take 
this kind of sense that we're talking about that  
in that moment you might be seeing something 
that's horrible or you're in this, in these  
pictures here you're seeing all of these confined 
animals, and someone's impulse who just wants to  
help animals might be to confront the farmer in 
that moment or grab one of those animals and run  
out and just have that momentary feeling that 
they've helped. But we're looking for people  
who have that kind of patience. It's not a 
sprint. It's a marathon. And just being able  
to have that kind of sense of composure to 
be able to document these things very clearly  
and be able to kind of deal with the fact that 
it's not really an exciting job. I think a lot  
of people come in thinking that it's very exciting 
when a lot of it can just be mundane, whether it's  
constantly doing research or just the amount of 
travel and time away from home that can kind of,  
you know, really disrupt people's lives. And 
the kind of disruption to your normal life  
is why most people end up leaving the 
job. They want to help animals but the,  
you know, they don't want to always be seeing 
these things that they might take with them.  
And it can really disturb people and, you know, 
you don't get to go home to your friends every  
night and say, 'Oh, guess what I saw today,' and 
kind of work through it all the time. So it does,  
it's a very kind of specific person and there 
aren't five boxes that we tick off with everyone.  
It's kind of a combination and some people arrive 
at that combination differently. Like myself,  
I was, you know, my mother's been a journalist 
for over 60 years and kind of ingrained in us  
this kind of sense of discipline to facts and 
hard work and patience. So those things I kind of  
relied on a lot. But other people have different 
skill sets that can also be beneficial. So,  
yeah, it's something that people really need to 
kind of confront within themselves. And sometimes  
we do that after we receive applications and 
I might send someone a video and say, 'Hey,  
watch this and just think, do you really want 
to be there in that, you know, standing there  
and seeing this firsthand?' Because it's very 
different than watching it in a video. And then  
a lot of times people never reply after they watch 
a couple of videos and kind of put themselves in  
that position. So, yeah, it's not an easy choice 
but we're always looking for people who are  
dedicated to fulfilling that role. [Sharon] And 
we're actually hiring for undercover investigators  
now in several countries, specifically here in the 
U.S. so I'll make a comment at the end but check  
out our 'Job' section on our website if you're 
interested in becoming an undercover investigator.  
So I know that one of the things that I learned 
from you, Sean, that I was surprised about and  
talked about... what I was impressed about when 
I first heard about it was onboarding. Getting  
someone ready to do an undercover investigation. 
I don't know how much you want to share or you  
can share but can you talk to us a little bit 
about that? If someone becomes an investigator.  
They apply to the job. They pass the first tests 
related to character and being able to do the job,  
the patience. What does that onboarding look 
like?[Sean] Yeah, I mean there's definitely an  
assessment that we have to do because in the U.S. 
we're doing these employment investigations where  
most of your time is spent doing hard manual 
labor. There's no way around that. And that can  
be a real shock to the system for people who've 
never had to get up at, you know, 5 a.m every day  
and then be immersed in just kind of hard farm 
work. And by, I shouldn't actually say farm work,  
because that gives it a different sense of what 
the conditions are like. It's industrial factory  
work whether you're on what the industry calls a 
pig farm. It's really these warehouses and you're  
walking on concrete and moving large animals 
all day long. I shouldn't say farm or farm work  
because it's not caring for animals. And sometimes 
people apply and say, 'I have a background in  
caring for animals. I grew up on a farm and I 
took care of calves and pigs and chickens.' And  
I said that's actually not a beneficial skill 
that companies are looking for. They're not hiring  
farm animal stewards. They're hiring people that 
can manage a warehouse full of animals that can  
pull out the dead pigs that die every single 
day. When I was working on a breeding farm,  
that was one of the main things that you did 
there. There'd be dead pigs, dead piglets,  
and you'd go around and pull them out. If that 
was a mother pig, she would weigh maybe 260 pounds  
on a fattening farm or finish farm where 
the pigs are being prepared for slaughter.  
Every day there's a couple in each barn that 
are dying. And so that's kind of your main work  
is pulling out the dead, putting them in big 
garbage heaps. On a hen farm where I worked,  
that was almost half the day was just going 
through all of the cages. In one barn there  
might be a hundred thousand hens and just pulling 
out the dead ones. And you would have to go  
row after row after row with a flashlight because 
it's kept so dark in these barns. And just pull  
out the dead ones that have been trampled or had 
died because they couldn't access water. So when  
people kind of come in and think, 'Oh, I know how 
to care for animals.' I say, 'Well, this is not  
what you're going to be doing. It's, can you lift 
a dead pig and throw them into a dumpster?' And so  
we do a lot of that kind of physical evaluation 
before we even get into all of the other type of  
training. [Sharon] Yeah. Yeah. And people at 
factory farms aren't generally caring for animals,  
right? They're...animals are a machine that 
become products or produce products and it's  
about making that process as efficient and as fast 
as possible. So a lot of people are asking, Sean,  
if you could explain more the duties on the job. 
Can you go a little bit more into that what does,  
like, a responsibility, a duty, the everyday of 
an undercover investigator at Animal Equality look  
like? [Sean] Yeah, there's a lot of research 
and preparations. So in all of our countries,  
regardless of kind of the tactic that we're using, 
we want to break down these supply chains. We want  
to understand the relationship between companies. 
Who is supplying this company and where do these  
animals go? What kind of labeling system is 
being used to promote them to the public to  
make it seem like there's a higher standard of 
care on one farm versus another? So we're doing  
all of this background research and then a lot of 
travel to kind of evaluate these facilities. So  
a lot of it is that. Just kind of an intense 
amount of background. And throughout that, we're  
preparing mentally for what the scenario will 
be. Whether it's working at a farm or using some  
other pretext to gain entry to a slaughterhouse 
and kind of building this story, the awareness  
of the area. And so there's a tremendous amount of 
that research that's going in beforehand. And then  
kind of like we've been saying, on these 
employment investigations the day-to-day is this  
kind of dual job. This intense work life on 
the facility, whether it's a slaughterhouse or  
industrial dairy or pig farm or hen farm. And 
then there's a job at night. And so the two  
kind of interchange with each other seamlessly 
all day long. It's not...it's almost a lifestyle  
versus a job and that might last for a couple 
of weeks before we kind of begin that planning  
stage for our next target. But, yeah. It's 
kind of that ever-, kind of, growing kind of  
job duties. There's not one day that's going to 
be, 'Okay, this is all you have to do today.' It  
seems to be that there are these, you know, 
it might be bumps in the road where we have  
to reevaluate, just switch everything up. So 
people have to be very flexible about their  
mental approach to all of this work. We can invest 
an enormous amount of time into something and say,  
'Okay, actually, well, legislation just passed.' 
And so, yeah, we have to kind of reevaluate,  
you know, if we can even work in this state now. 
Like in the U.S. where they pass Ag-Gag laws and  
we could be preparing for investigations 
in a state like Iowa and then think,  
'Okay, wow.' There's been an Ag-Gag law that we 
thought was going to be overturned but the very  
next week it was upheld. And so we're out of that 
state now. We have to just reassess where we're  
going to go next. [Sharon] Yeah. And something 
about Animal Equality investigations, too, is that  
we try to make sure that they are as strategic 
as possible and I can give a recent example.  
Just yesterday we released an investigation into 
slaughterhouses in Brazil. It's an investigation  
that Sean himself did. So he traveled to Brazil 
and was able to gain access to slaughterhouses.  
And all of that footage was released yesterday 
getting media attention in different media in  
Brazil. But the reason why this investigation 
is strategic, it was released just before  
the Brazil Senate tries to pass a bill 
getting rid of federal inspections  
within slaughterhouses in Brazil. So it was 
incredibly important and we've seen this  
throughout the years where the investigations 
we've done in Jalisco, for example, in Mexico.  
Investigations that Sean also participated 
in, as well as members of our team,  
are shown in the Congress of Jalisco with 
dozens of congresspeople watching this footage  
and voting the first legislation or the first 
laws in the first protections for farmed animals  
in the state of Jalisco. And in Mexico 
making, for example, stunning animals  
in slaughterhouses mandatory. So that's critical 
at Animal Equality. Investigations are at the  
core of what we do. They are the program 
that Animal Equality focuses on primarily.  
And they are the program that allows us to 
change legislations, to change companies,  
to educate millions of people. We have a very 
interesting question that's been asked by  
Carrie, Jessica, Sharon, Chela, Guillermo and 
Nina. How difficult is it to stand by and see  
cruelty firsthand and not be able to intervene? 
How do you remain calm and strong when faced with  
such difficult situations?' I'll go first with 
this one. I've visited about 50 farms in different  
countries. Most of the farms I've visited have 
been in Spain...hen farms. A caged hen farm was  
the first investigation I was ever a part 
of. Chicken farms, pig farms, cow farms.  
I've been lucky that I've been able to rescue 
some of the animals and help some of these...the  
animals in these conditions. Animal Equality in 
Europe carried out what are called open rescues,  
where we would enter different facilities in 
Europe and Spain, in the UK, in Italy. We would  
do an investigation. We would film as much as we 
could related to the conditions of the animals.  
Specifically, one of the most impactful are hens 
in cages where there's hundreds of hens in cages  
that are so small and an individual hen can't even 
spread their wings or move. And I've been able to  
to take some of these animals, bring them to the 
vet, and give them a new life at a sanctuary in  
freedom. And the transformation is immediate 
and it really helps you understand the quality  
of factory farming from an animal that never 
sees the day, never sees the day of light. Never,  
you know, is never able to scratch. Is never able 
to walk. Is never able to spread their wings.  
Is never able to have any healthy behavioral 
relationships with other animals or humans.  
To take them to the vet and then bring them 
to a sanctuary and see the moments when they  
actually take those first steps in freedom. And 
for many of these animals, it's the first time  
they're able to walk. To take a dust bath, 
a sand bath. To be able to feel the sun.  
And it's truly special and magical, of 
course, it's not something that we can  
do on a regular basis. So then the question, 
I pass it on to you. How difficult is it to  
stand by and see the cruelty firsthand and not be 
able to intervene? [Sean] Yeah, it was, you know,  
when I was working on those first farms, you're 
confronted by just the the enormity of this issue.  
At the first pig farm where I worked, on that 
very first day the manager beat a mother pig to  
death with a crowbar and cut her open and said, 
'Okay, everyone. Get those piglets out of her  
and resuscitate them,' because she could not. She 
was too sick to deliver them. And so you're just  
seeing this world that is, it was so alien to 
me. And it was such a shock to be watching this  
animal be killed and then have the person say, 
'Okay, now let's save the babies.' It was this  
moral idea that didn't make any sense except 
for the fact, and what you've been saying, that  
these are not animals they are products in the 
industrial factory farm setting. So, of course,  
it makes perfect sense in that scenario for that 
manager to say, 'Yes. I'm gonna kill the mother  
and then be desperate to rescue those piglets,' 
because they are the money for that system.  
And when I left the farm that first day, yeah, I 
cried driving back home and was just so horrified  
at what I'd seen. But then I actually said, 'I'm 
not going to cry anymore about this,' because  
that's for myself. The tears that I'm shedding 
now are just for myself. That's not, it didn't,  
it's not solving the pain of those animals. If I 
want to help them, we have to show more and more  
to the world what is actually happening. 
And just, you have to set aside your own  
feelings in those moments. I don't tell that 
to everyone. I just say that's for myself and  
if I want to continue on and do this then that was 
kind of the commitment that I made in that moment
[Sharon] Thank you, thank you, thank you for 
sharing that. There are some questions that  
are coming up on the chat that I want to make 
sure we get to and i'll go back to some of the  
other questions that our supporters have asked. 
So a lot of people are asking how do we choose  
which slaughterhouse to investigate. [Sean] 
Yeah, and that kind of goes back into the  
research strategy that you were talking 
about in terms of we're wanting to link with  
legislation. Whether it's like what we're doing 
in Mexico where the investigations are the basis  
for legislation that is proposed. And we've 
been so successful in Mexico. It's absolutely  
amazing how we're fueling that legislative 
process. Or in Brazil where we want to counteract  
measures that are being passed that will reduce 
protections for animals. So in Brazil they want  
to remove inspectors from slaughterhouses and 
allow slaughterhouses to do self-inspection.  
It's very similar to a program that's in the 
test phase in the U.S. And it's a high-speed  
slaughter for pigs and it allows companies to 
increase the speed and do self-reporting for  
many of the points in the slaughterhouse. And we 
want to be able to counteract those things. So  
we would want to be able to do the research into 
which slaughterhouses are part of this program  
or which slaughterhouses are connected to a 
company that we want to influence so all of that  
goes into this kind of larger matrix that we're 
trying to use to strategize and have the most  
impact with these investigations. [Sharon] Yeah. 
Yeah. Going back to the...thanks for that. That  
was one of the questions I wanted to make sure 
that we get to. Some of the questions that  
people are asking LIVE at this time. And thanks 
everyone who is watching and interested in this,  
such an important topic for animals. Yeah. I 
wanted to go back to the cruelty firsthand and  
not being able to intervene. You can't always, or 
very seldom actually, can you rescue an animal.  
And, again, this is something that we've done only 
in some countries. In Europe, I also remember once  
we did an investigation with actress 
Rooney Mara and she wanted to see firsthand  
what was happening inside chicken farms and pig 
farms because she's a vegan. She's an activist.  
She's an incredible advocate for animals. And 
we went into pig farms in the UK and chicken  
farms. And I remember particularly there was 
this facility we were in and the mother pigs,  
the sows, are, were in what are called farrowing 
crates. And these are the cages, the crates,  
where they give birth and where they're with 
their baby piglets for some weeks before  
the pigs are taken to be raised and then, finally, 
after four to six months to be sent to slaughter.  
And I remember while we were there, and this 
has happened, many times as I visited pig  
farms. One of the female pigs, when she started 
giving birth to the pig...so we were filming it  
just seeing the scene of this mother, this mammal, 
giving birth to her piglets in a metal cage was  
is very impactful. But as she was giving birth, 
one of the piglets...the piglets...generally the  
mother gives birth and they take a few seconds or 
a few minutes to get to where they can suckle and  
be close to her mother. But one of the piglets had 
got wrapped up in the placenta. And I was able to  
go into the farrowing crate. I was, 
of course, wearing a biosecurity suit.  
And untangle this piglet and bring 
him closer, bring him or her close to  
to the mother for him to be able to suckle. 
And it's the process of giving birth that is so  
important, right? So we give it such importance 
as humans and we see that in animals it's just,  
you know, another part of the 
process. That we want to make  
as quick and effective as possible and 
it doesn't matter if some of the piglets  
die during the process because the only thing 
that matters are the numbers, that they reach  
certain numbers. Okay, I'm being told that 
there's ten minutes left so I'm going to move  
on to some of the questions that got the most 
asked. One of them that I want to get to, Sean,  
is how are investigators able to cope with what 
they see and what resources are available to them.
[Sean] Yeah. So a lot of that comes in through 
our screening of candidates. So like we're  
talking about, if you really love and want to help 
animals, maybe it isn't necessarily the right job.  
So we're doing a lot of screening in that first 
step and then a lot of preparation for what people  
will experience and what they'll encounter in 
those different kinds of harrowing situations  
that they might be faced with...like what you just 
described witnessing these births. And just how  
harsh the conditions are and that overwhelming 
feeling that, 'Okay, here I am placing this  
piglet. Then the mother cannot even turn and 
meet her piglet and guide her to be able to  
nurse.' It's such an overwhelming emotion when you 
see the pigs in those cages where they cannot even  
make eye contact with their babies in those first 
moments. And so we're doing a lot of preparation  
for all of that. And then there is simply that, 
you know, there's, you know, I get phone calls  
after work from the investigators who say, 
'I just...I'm so tired. I'm so exhausted.  
The facility is working us 14 hours and then we 
have to go back tomorrow and go right back to work  
at 7 00 a.m and I only have four hours of sleep. 
Can I just do my report on the weekend?' And  
we talk through all of these things in that moment 
to kind of be there and share that experience  
and have that outlet available to them. And 
then we also have counseling services for people  
who really feel like they're overwhelmed by 
what they've seen, want to take a break from  
doing that kind of work. And we offer counseling 
services to those people as well. But it's, yeah,  
it is a very difficult thing to be a part of 
and most of that just comes from the intense  
amount of preparation that we're doing so that 
people aren't overwhelmed in those moments.
[Sharon] Stephanie asks, 'Were you ever able 
to get any farms or slaughterhouses shut down?'  
Yes, absolutely. And I think we've calculated 
that thanks to Animal Equality's investigations,  
about 90 facilities have closed. So 
Animal Equality did an investigation  
into the dog and cat meat trade in China and then 
we worked, after that investigation we worked with  
authorities in the country and we 
managed to get 44 stalls in a market  
that were selling cat and dog meat closed. 
And actually, related to this investigation,  
our Executive Director in Italy, Alice, was just 
at the Italian Senate this week speaking about  
animal cruelty and speaking about the work that 
Animal Equality has done to document the slaughter  
of cats and dogs in China. And then another 
example is the investigations we did in Mexico  
as part of a campaign that was called Enemy of the 
Planet and Amigo del Planeta where we documented,  
through drone footage and with investigations, 
severe violations of environmental laws in Mexico  
and managed to get 44 of those farms shut down for 
violations of environmental regulations. So this  
isn't necessarily one of our key strategies within 
the organization. We always want to make sure  
that we're able to achieve system change. So 
getting rid of cages, improving the welfare of  
chickens, passing laws, passing legislation that 
protects animal welfare, farmed animals broadly.  
But they're definitely...it's definitely 
litigation that we pursue when it's possible and  
it is possible in some cases. Do you want to add 
anything to this, Sean? [Sean] Yeah. And it's, you  
know, we don't always have the perfect response 
from law enforcement in the U.S. It could be very  
difficult to have them engage on some of these 
issues. We might see this horrific cruelty and  
someone from that community says, 'Oh, well, what 
you're watching is just what happens on a farm  
and you're just too sensitive.' So a lot of these 
investigations, what we're trying to do is break  
down this barrier between the fact that animal 
cruelty laws are not designed just to protect  
dogs and cats. They're meant to prevent cruelty 
to all animals. And a lot of law enforcement are  
not aware of that. They think, 'Oh, well, if it 
happens at a slaughterhouse or inside this large  
company factory farm then I don't even have 
the right to go in and do an investigation or  
challenge what they're doing.' And so we have to 
do a lot of work with them to say hey actually  
the law is there it's there to protect animals 
and you're just thinking that because they are  
going to be killed for meat that they shouldn't be 
protected at any point along the way. And it's an  
error. And one of our most recent efforts to kind 
of further our investigative goals is with the  
Foster Farms lawsuit that we filed in California. 
Because law enforcement was unwilling to  
engage with us on the cruelty that we documented 
at the Foster Farms hatchery in California,  
we are now filing a...or have filed a lawsuit 
to seek damages as a result of that company's  
actions in their hatchery. [Sharon] Yeah. Talk 
to us a little bit, Sean, this is a question from  
Munawar that I want to make sure we get to. What 
are your thoughts on Ag-Gag laws? [Sean] Yeah.  
Ag-Gag laws are just very blatant barriers that 
the industry lobbies for. So the factory farming  
industry and the meat industry lobbies for these 
laws to prevent activists, journalists, anyone,  
from taking pictures of animals in a factory farm 
or a slaughterhouse. There are various versions  
of these laws right now. They're active in 
a couple of states. Montana, North Dakota,  
Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, and Alabama. And they're 
blatantly unconstitutional and it's purely a way  
that the industry says, 'Hey, we don't want 
to change our behavior. We want to continue  
our way that we make immense amounts of 
profits from the suffering of animals. And so  
what we'll do is, we'll just have a law that 
protects us in a unique way that restricts  
activists or groups like Animal Equality from 
even doing these investigations.' So we're part  
of coalition efforts to overturn these laws and 
been successful, most recently in North Carolina.  
And I think, you know, we'll see these laws fail 
the test in the courts. But in the meantime, it  
does restrict our ability to even show the public 
what happens to animals in these situations.
[Sharon] We're coming up to the end of 
our time, Sean. But I want to ask you a  
more general question. What is in the future 
of...what's your vision for the future for  
Animal Equality's Investigations Department? 
[Sean] Yeah. We're always expanding the ways  
in which we conduct investigations. And we've used 
drones extensively in the past and we've used them  
to kind of make the connection between these large 
factory farming facilities and the environmental  
impact that they have and the pollution that 
they create. We've also used different types of  
cameras to show...with the 360 cameras to kind of 
create this immersive journey into slaughterhouses  
and factory farms. So kind of the next phase of 
that is...some of it is just following on our  
core principles of just being out there in more 
places. That just does take a lot of resources  
the more we're able to put people out into 
the field and keep them there and get them to,  
you know, like you were saying before, 
to present some of these investigations,  
we might have to go to a hundred facilities and 
spend all of these hours, all of these weeks  
and months traveling. And that's incredibly 
resource intensive. And so we're spending a  
lot of time now finding the right people and doing 
this type of training and preparation so that we  
will be more impactful and be able to expand our 
programs in all of the countries. And that's the  
way that we can influence people's behavior the 
most, I believe. [Sharon] Thank you so much.  
And I just want to thank everyone who's watching 
and reinforce that undercover investigations are  
at the core of who we are and what we do at 
Animal Equality. Sean has been leading and doing  
investigations for over 20 years. All of Animal 
Equality's Executive Directors have participated  
and actively work overseeing and working with Sean 
to do investigations. Overall, we've investigated  
over 500 facilities in all of the eight countries 
that we're working in. And just last year in 2021,  
Animal Equality presented 19 investigations and 
we hope to continue doing...we will continue  
doing this groundbreaking work around the world 
because this is what animals need from us. So  
thank you so much, everyone, for joining. I ask 
you to please continue supporting this strong,  
serious, professional, dedicated work 
that Animal Equality has done led by  
Sean. And reach out to us. You have our 
website, animalequality.org, if you have  
any questions about our work. And thank you so 
much everyone for asking, for participating,